Yes, you're absolutely right about the oppressive potential of group dynamics, Tim. Thanks for reminding me of that. I guess what you're indicating is about overt and covert or concious and subconcious manipulation. You said about being 'careful' on this track in our own community...how do you think we can guard against 'institutional manipulation' whilst still being an 'ekklesia'? What do you think are the paths for holding the tension of being an open community that celebrates individuals but is also specific and focussed, as a local church might be? Can a group of people be inclusive of persons and exclusive in its direction/mission at the same time, do you think?

On the questions in your second paragraph about marrying the insights of psychology and sociology of religion with faith in an external 'god', I'm not sure I've got a fully thought out and definitve answer, so sorry for that. I do have some thoughts and some experiences which are meaningful for me, though, if that's a helpful contribution to the conversation.

Similarly to Jon, I probably start my belief in an external god in natural revelation (from what Loius said Jon talked a bit about his connection with god/God through nature during your evening at the curry house - v. sorry I couldn't be with you, sounds like I missed a corker of an evening!). My science degree, much to my surprise, rather than destroy my faith actually gave me a greater marvel in the Universe and I see many hints at teleology and design. My experience is that sociology of religion poses a far more fundamental challenge to religion than that posed by science.

After that, the challenge is going from a very generalised 'god' to any specific portrayal of God, such as the Jewish/Christian/Islamic monotheistic God, the Hindu Gods, the Ancient Greek Gods, the more contemporary pantheistic portrayals, and so on. It's at this point that I find the questions posed by sociology of religion most acute. If you're born into a Roman Catholic Christian social context, how can you be anything other than a Roman Catholic Christian? I find that a very tough question to answer, and yet there are many people who don't fit that aphorism. For every person there are many social spheres that overlap and many psychological, social and biological factors that will affect their responses to those influences. How or why any individual reacts in any specific way is chaotic, in many ways - on the macro scale, clear patterns and trends can be seen; on the micro scale, who knows what's going to happen! Sarah and I have been married for coming on 10 years. I know generally what her approach to life is pretty well and can frequently second-guess her reponse in a given situation fairly accurately, but she consitently surprises me.

I have plumped for a Christian understanding of God. How I've come to that point is both complex and simple. I was born in Britain in the 20th century to middle-class, educated, white Christian parents I was biologically related to, so there's much about my life and beliefs that could easily be described as predetermined. The trouble is, I'm not a simple product of social forces. In many ways I am not an 'average reader' but have taken the time to become an 'informed reader.' I have invested and am investing the time and energy to educate myself about life, reading and listening to a wide cross-section of views (that could always be wider) and trying to understand the macroscopic patterns and trends as well as some of the micro-scale detail. I'm trying to temper any Pavlovian psychological and sociological tendencies I may have with my crical faculties, critquing from within (self-reflection) and critiquing from without (reading/listening to reflections from outside myself and outside my social context ).

I'm not sure any of that helps, and I feel like I want to talk a lot more about this, but don't have the words to voice my thoughts. I guess my overall perspective is that I have heard and rumninated on (some of) the insights of psychology and sociology of religion, and I need to carry on listening to and reflecting on them. I must go on suspecting the idols of naive faith. But I need to be able to retrieve something of value, because I can't shake off a belief in an external God, when push comes to shove. So I find my self using the suspicions to tear down the idols in order that the symbols might live.