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God of love and natural disasters?
A recent discussion about how hard it is to reconcile the idea of a loving God with the trauma and horror of natural disasters has got me thinking:
does God control nature?
Can we believe that even right at the beginning of time there were no reasons to suppose that the shifts in natural climates/ecology would affect humankind?
Can we hope that now God can intervene and stop the movement of nature?
How much should we as a civilization have to bear the consequences for being so out of touch with nature and our environment?
Can God really be loving if he allows such terrible suffering and pain because he created a moving natural force which he clearly chooses not to control for our benefit from time to time?
This got me thinking further: it often seems that in the midst of the most acute pain and suffering the best in humankind is demonstrated. Without the crises we seem selfish and apathetic as a general rule. Unless there is sadness we can't experience joy, and unless there is loss, we can't experience comfort etc. etc. I don't want to believe that God chooses to 'smite' people with these awful occurences just to teach us about his comfort and hope in the midst of despair etc. but I am mulling over the idea of the depth and duality of life's experiences. How can we appreciate life with no knowledge of death?
Does this have any relevance to the question of God's role in nature and the part he plays in these huge world events? Any thoughts??
September 22, 2005 - 10:23pm
It is hard to really believe the world ever really existed where these things did not happen. The Bible suggests Gods control over nature such as the sun standing still and sending rains that flooded the earth. I just cannot believe that - earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates moving, hurricanes by natural processes etc
So we are left with an age old theological argument. God must:
Not be all loving or
Not be all powerful
That human goodness comes from suffering does not point to the existence of a God unless that God is only one of the above. The other alternative is to do what we can to make the word better and wait for some afterlife which does not seem very satisfactory to me.
I suppose I have come down on there is not some external God 'out there' controlling the universe, but an incarnational God sharing the world with us, actually not all knowing and all powerful, and to be found in the most unlikely places. But maybe I am deluding myself and the world is just hostile and random and I need to learn to deal with that!!
Tim
November 26, 2005 - 5:16pm
When bad things happen should we blame God? Even the Bible says that chance plays a part in all our lives, I suppose Adam swapped security for instability the moment he sinned against god - the world is cursed.
As a consequence we've willingly alienated ourselves from a broken world thats a constant reminder of our impotence, mortality and sin. We are therefore shocked and angered, blaming God, when the world reminds us of the true order of things. However, when all is going well many of us forget God entirely, only hauling him out to hang the blame on when it hits the fan.
Maybe when bad things are'nt happening lets call that an 'Act of God' instead and when they do happen, do as the bible suggests and 'consider'.
December 6, 2005 - 10:20pm
Dear Steve (and anyone else still following this thread)
Firstly have we met - I am not sure? Apologies and hello if we have. I would be interested to know whether your comment is from experience of seemingly random, and very painful suffering or trauma that comes from the natural world? If it is then I have respect for what you are saying as I know that if one of my relatives had been caught up in the Tsuami for instance I would be unable to say what you have. I have friends who have suffered terribly in life and found the easy answers of blame Adam and Eve do not work.
I agree that many things that happen to us are just chance - things which happen that we cannot explain. These can often not be laid at Gods door, indeed sometimes we even grow and develop through these experiences and discover God. This is often part of the painful fabric of life. My question has been - if you follow my comments through the thread, is when things are caused by what is weaved into the fabric of the created order - see my comments on how that leaves us only with God unloving or not all powerful. The Bible was written at a time when people attributed things to the displeasure of the gods - now we know that they are caused by tectonic plates moving etc. I have not willingly bought anything on the world - I have come to live in a world through no choosing of my own when, you seem to be implying, that I am somehow responsible for instance that a friend of mine's daughter was born with, and died of, cystic fybrosis in unbelievable pain. She did not willing do anything! I am afraid that well we thank God when things go well but when our lives turn out shitty and our observation of a suffering world is shitty then God is out the picture does not work for me. I agree that the world often reminds us of our smallness, our inability to control the natural world and that we are but one part of the cycle of life - from the earth and given back to it - but that does not lead me to a God who somehow is ultimately in control of it all and who created with a faulty design. It might lead me to a God who is with us in the world.
Yours
Tim
October 5, 2005 - 1:29pm
I know im a little late coming in on this discussion, but id lke to float a thought.
The God that I instinctively know IS all loving, and IS all powerful, and yet like Tim says, its hard to see how He can be with all this crazy stuff that goes on.
You may have heard the quote "We are not Human Beings on a spiritual Journey. We are Spiritual Beings on a Human Journey."
This really resonates with me. We came from God, are born into a world of physicaltiy, we learn some lessons, we love, we give, we take, we experience hurt and seperation, we experience togetherness. Then we return back to God for a debrief! (and arguably for another go? Lets not go there at the moment! :)
If we came from bliss (heaven) and are returning to bliss, whats the point in only experiencing bliss in the short term? There is a whole range and spectrum of human experience for us to "suck the marrow out of."
Is it possible that our new born baby bodies and sponge like brains, our pure hearts, and the face of the planet was like a blank canvas when we came into this world? We can choose to go within and bring forth light and love. Or we can be influenced externally, allow the hate and pain to climb inside us and change us. (Not to say that there isnt light and love in the world already! Far from it!)
We are experiencing a planet that has had many generations of mixed taking and giving. But its been us that has done that. Not God. Well... God in us... Well - I guess thats a paradox. Or a cop out. Not sure.
Humans have created mass-media. We know we are profoundly influenced by our imaginations and our beliefs. At one level, we know that stress and worry causes health probelems in our own body. So is there an arhgument to say that when mass-media creates two films about Tsunami's (Armageddon and ... that other one with Morgan Freeman...) that within two years, after these thoughts and images have had a good amount of time to nestle into the creative parts of our beings, Lo and Behold, we have a Tsunami.
Now a year after "The Day after tomorrow" we have Katrina to deal with.
The story of Adam and Eve shows that we are taken from the earth. That we are connected to it. Does it make sense that 20 million people can influence it through mass conciousness like we do our own bodies? If not directly through our imagination, but through the consumption of the worlds resources, and misuse of our planet?
The realm of the physical and spiriutal are mirrors of each other. They influence each other.
I know it sounds a bit "New Age" and a bit far fetched. But this is also based on the belief that God made us as incredible spiritual beings, capable of things well beyond our own sphere of awareness. After all, He HIMSELF is resident inside us. It makes sense to me that have have a far greater influence on each other, and this planet than we currently are willing to accept, enjoy and take responsibiltiy for.
October 7, 2005 - 5:52pm
Not sure I go for films to the real thing via Mass consciousness - that lets a creator off the hook far too easily! However, I do believe (and what is wrong with New Age) that we are connected to the planet, each other and 'God' and in the widest sense of the term sin to describe our sense of alienation from ourselves, each other, the planet and God, then I can see that as a spiritual journey we should be on, to live lives in harmony, I agree with what you are saying. My struggle with the notion of a Creator does not mean I believe in using that as an excuse to wrestle with issues without actually getting my hands dirty.(discussion about reincarnation as your comment implies would be a great discussion!)
I also agree that we shouldn't let ourselves off the hook - we are responsible fo choices resulting in changes to the world climate. I don't really go for spiritual beings on a human jouney in any disembodied sense - there is no difference between spirituality and humanness - when we are fully human with all that it means, that is the highest form of spirituality - fully engaged with ourselves, each other, the planet and God.
As with many of these discussions I find myself in some agreement philiosphically with what is being said but find it hard to square that with a traditional Christian approach to a Creator God whilst at the same time more innately believing God is passionately concerned and involved with all that we experience as humans. It is whether God is something outside of myself, outside of the material world that I have become a bit unsure of.
Tim
March 20, 2006 - 1:19pm
I couldn't resist this topic!
connectedness to GOD connectedness to nature
am I being a bit insensitive to pick up on the disasters without the tears and shock and horror... don't get me wrong please I heard the news shock horror of the mounting numbers of missing people etc etc the people of the civilised and developping to civilised world who died..... going about their everydays....(that really hurt devastated watching on tv shocked).....
well are we being too clever or too obtuse stubborn... trusting in GOD or taking something for granted trusting in our luck... getting real or not getting something at all understanding not understanding or misunderstanding?
I want to share something about the tsunami... I know that's a bit of a few natural disasters ago... and also one where tectonic plate movement ...is that in our control..?
but in one of those (collated quite a few of them) .. detached moments had me thinking..
I have to say I got a bit sick of the debate about why wasn't there early warning!? system ... like what a big mobile phone alarm call system.... oops false alarm ... be on alert etc
what caught my eye was a few stories..... one the rescue of the praying family as the waves parted awesome AMEN!
but.... I found myself though ....thinking about... .... well who came out safest? a few who survived cos... instinct? who controled the destiny of those who just happened to have taken that trip inland up that mountain?
who came out best? the ones who took out the best insurance cover? .... hmmm
well.... there was the animals that somehow 'sensed?' something ... how was it then that something brought about mass migration into the high parts?... soemthing was wrong sensing acting in the appropriate way... oh except those ones tied down by their 'owners'(absolutely hate that term!) on the shoreline going about their everydays... unable to break those chains.....
oh and what about all those people the entire populations that survived? population ie all the folks.... who survived !!!!! the primitive neolithic peoples who sensed?... who saw? the animals sensed something was wrong....? and followed them up the mountain... ..and when the waters subsided they lived happily everafter (....once they had repelled the threat of friend or foe? bringing diseases foreign bodies and warped consciousnesses?? and for once the civilised folks had the good sense to leave them be.... -saying this do not want to be overly rosy about any aspect of their community survival strategies but that here they were equipped- ) lesson for us? is there a GOSPEL TRUTH MESSAGE here? I mean about GOD's Spirit, truth, a liberation and peace message?
so who is listening to GOD ....
MPH develop the third world for our benefit ... or was it the....?
GOD saved no-one? or all who were listening to?? some sort of message of warning... but whose warning and to whom?
so who is more important to GOD? what is more important to GOD...?
what is LOVE..?
GOD BLESS!
Peace and Love
July 28, 2006 - 5:42pm
hi bit glum at the minute....
not about the LOVE OF GOD
but about this ongoing heatwave..
I just thought the topic above so apt ... for now I think the possibilities of 'climate change'/sunspots etc is begining to sink through to our media though what consequences we have at present is fairly mild in comparison to what it would look like if say things continue in the same vein for year after year....
famine and drought in Europe? with the crops harvesting being affected in so many ways this year the impacts may be hidden in our shopping bills where food has been imported .. with reports of grain stores in decline ... will we always be in a position to compensate through import?
our energy bills ... energy bills = more hot air? ok in winter? our building structures best organised?
general water issues...
... and the ice cube transfer from the arctic cap to our fridges via a lot of hot air....
is this a time to worry ? that I do I give these resonances and concerns about peace to GOD
is this a GOD thing our ours of our own making is it a wait and see for what the gov't teaches us
all peace surely is about wisdom and good listening
GOD BLESS!
Peace and Love,
November 4, 2006 - 6:46pm
Don't know if this helps (or the opposite): http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/barrow/article_06114disaster.shtml
Developed out of a piece I originally wrote in 2004 ('Is God a disaster area?'), but angled in this case to the Katrina anniversary and Richard Dawkins' comments on religion as pathology.
Shalom, S
November 6, 2006 - 2:16pm
Thanks for your comments, Simon - as ever, a rockin' Ekklesia article.
You're a dude.
December 27, 2006 - 11:24am
"does God control nature?"
sure. just remember words about birds - no one of them can fall to earth without God's wish.
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